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MMO Weekly 21/07/09
 Jeff Hollis 

Ahoy there, my fellow game-heads, and welcome to the very latest edition of MMO Weekly.  Over the past two weeks, I've been whacking away at a bees nest, going after the untouchable sacred cow and, in general, upsetting all the Blizzard fanbois and fangurls by suggesting that WoW, because their endgame content is based largely upon doing work, was in the long, slow process of committing suicide. 


A BIT OF BACKGROUND

World of WarcraftMy argument in part 1 was that WoW was based primarily on two older MMOs.  The first was Everquest, and the second was Dark Age of Camelot.  Both games, I argued, grew because they followed the well-established dungeon crawl model invented by Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson in Dungeons and Dragons.  Their style of play based itself on the idea of small group of friends having a fun adventure.  That might take the form of, say, exploring an abandoned tomb, discovering a secret or two, and fighting a slew of baddies.  However, there was a lot of variety in the D&D adventures (both the official modules and many unofficial, but publicly available knock offs), and D&D fully encouraged this kind of creativity by DMs.  Play sessions were full of battles, races against time, traps, survival challenges, rescues, mysteries, and  all manner of swashbuckling.  Both EQ and DAoC captured the feel of this kind of content extremely well. 

Inexplicably, at the endgame, the developers of both EQ and DAoC decided to change the very basis of gameplay, and they introduced very difficult, grind-heavy content.  This content (primarily raids in EQ, and large scale, grind-heavy PvP in DAoC) rewarded players with both loot and skill unlocks unavailable to normal players.  What's worse, willing players were rewarded not primarily for their skill or creativity, but instead for spending endless amounts of time in the game, participating in this artificially hard endgame content.  In a moment of extraordinary maturity, I referred to this endgame content as DICC: Difficult and Increasingly time Consuming Content. 

DRIVING YOUR PLAYERS INTO THE ARMS OF OTHER GAMES


This approach, I argued, slowly alienated normal players.  It essentially made them less-powerful, second class citizens, simply because they were unwilling to participate in the endless grind.  By emphasising DICC, and thus alienating the average player, both the DAoC and EQ developers were slowly killing their own games.  They simply made their respective games a lot less fun, and therefore vulnerable.  The moment a viable alternative/replacement MMO came along – one that made playing fun again - players bolted, leaving both the EQ and DAoC subscriber base shadows of what they once had been.  That game was WoW.


WHO NEEDS FUN?  KEEP THOSE PLAYERS WORKING

My argument in part 2 was that WoW, upon launch, adhered closely to the Gygax Arneson dungeon crawl model,World of Warcraft and players loved it.  However, still early in its existence, the WoW devs chose to rather closely mimic the DAoC and EQ endgame content.  The Blizzard developers introduced 40 man endgame raids, which were at the time extremely demanding and time-intensive.  They also introduced a relativistic PvP model that required a truly unbelievable time commitment.  Both of these activities rewarded players willing to grind through this content with the best loot in the game at that time. Again, this made normal players – those unwilling to put in the hours and hours of work - feel unheroic, alienated, and second rate. 

I also argued that, as WoW continued to grow into the juggernaut it is today, it never really deviated from its commitment to time-intensive, artificially hard endgame content.  However, the forms of DICC that the WoW developers fed to the players changed over time.  That ultra-intense sliding scale PvP system?  It was replaced by a much more reasonable system (though still somewhat grind heavy) in which honor points are accumulated.  Soon thereafter, however, the devs introduced the very DICCish Arena system.  This system is exceptionally grind heavy, requiring several hours of play per week for an entire *season*.  Like all DICC content, the rewards for participating in Arena combat are among the best in the game.  Players that participate in the older PvP battlegrounds system?  Under the current rules, they can only earn the older, noticeably inferior Arena gear from previous seasons.  Of course, even that's contingent on them maintaining a minimum 'personal Arena rating'.  This requirement requires them to participate in both battlegrounds AND Arena matches, and thus ensures that a truly outrageous amount of work is required.   

N4G : News for Gamers

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User comments

(1) Posted: 13:38 on 21 Jul 2009
Luke Kneller
Hehe, I love all this complaining about WoW. Everyone who doesn't mind a bad installation should try Final Fantasy XI. The end game / mid game is no longer a grind. SO many quests and things to do.

Not terribly user friendly (where you have to go) and no customised interface, but as far as content goes, is so much "more" (imo) than WoW.

However, I'm just a FFXI fan boi' (and I'm not putting WoW down, as it[WoW] is so much more user friendly).
(2) Posted: 13:45 on 21 Jul 2009
Bill Vaughan
There's no doubt that Blizzard took several ideas from existing MMOs to make WoW, but if that's merely all they did, mistakes (read raids) and all, why did the playerbase stick with WoW when other games such as LOTRO, WAR and AoC come out?

I think you just have to acknowledge that, even though you clearly don't enjoy raiding, many people obviously DO! Do you assume that WoW players put themselves through raids week after week because they have nothing else in their lives to do? Surely, if they were as boring and repetative as you say, people would rather turn off the game than endure them? At the very least, leave WoW for one of the many other MMOs out there.

But they don't.

And players don't raid just to pose in towns! We raid to improve our characters, to be better killing, healing, or tanking machines, to be able to face harder content, to progress. And we love it! If anyone raids who doesn't enjoy it, it's time to stop.

On some of your ideas for alternatives; More instances. We'd all like to see new content, obviously, but how long would it last? Say Blizzard added 20 creative and interesting instances tomorrow. Most players would've done them within a week, then where would we be? Replay them? Then we're back where we are now, with the same content to repeat over and over. The thing is with raids, you can't just go through them in a night, they're challenging and take time to work through.

User-generated content sounds interesting, and it's sure been popular in CoH/CoV. However, as you said, a vast chunk of this stuff is trash. There's probably only a handful of decent encounters which gives players, what, another week of content? Randomised instances could be fun, more instances like Violet Hold but longer, and as long as the loot drops were totally random too.

Adding loads of new gear would mean more of the same stuff we already have. The reason we do heroics now is to obtain better gear so that we can get into raids to obtain better gear and so on. What happens when there's no better gear? What would you play for? Pre end-game, you play to level up. When you're at the top level, the only way to progress is to get better gear.

Your idea about there being superior gear in harder instances - well you're descibing heroics and raids which we have already, as you said. People would just grind them until they had the best gear, same as now.

Customised gear sounds like fun, but I'm not sure how much difference it would make to gameplay, we can already customise gear through gems and enchants. The prestige item raids are a nice idea, and they would certainly be popular if they were in the game now, even though there are items like this in the game already, found in certain instances.

I'm fully aware why end game is more 'grindy', it's because there needs to be something for high level players to do that will take them a while. It's not a horrible secret, we know how it is. There's not an endless stream of content, and we all accept this is how it works. The thing is, I'm more than fine with it for now, and so are a few other million people. If Blizzard come up with a way to continuously provide challenging new content - great! Until then, I'm happy to raid for epics each week with my guild mates. If it gets boring, I'll start a new character, level my fishing, cooking, or god forbid, try another MMO that works in exactly the same way.

Until someone thinks of a way to drastically change the way we play MMOs (and if anyone's going to do it, it'll probably be Blizzard), I'll continue to enjoy what I have available to me :)
(3) Posted: 13:59 on 21 Jul 2009
Luke Kneller
Come on over to FFXI Bill :P You're hard-core enough to see past the bad-install ^,^
(4) Posted: 15:58 on 21 Jul 2009
Elvyra
Jeff here (logging in with the wife's account):

Remember the history of the genre, Bill. EQ and DAoC stayed at the top of the heap for quite a long time, despite the launches of other MMOs. Anarchy Online, WWII Online, Asheron's Call II, etc. Large numbers of players, tired of the EQ / DAoC endgame drudgery, tried each of these new titles. Their subscription numbers soon dipped, because each of the new games was flawed, in some cases badly. Players stayed with/returned to EQ and DAoC, despite the endgame grind.

What does this tell you? Players, at the time, were hungry for something else, and they were giving these new games a go. When they didn't satisfy, they returned to their old MMOs.

Despite their flaws, EQ and DAoC were, like WoW, still good games overall. But as soon as a solid contender came along - WoW - they abandoned their former MMOs for the new one.

That phenomenon is repeating itself now. That's the situation WoW is in. It's still a good game, and the contenders that have arisen are flawed. AoC had problems galore (including no endgame whatsoever) and Warhammer left even me (a fanboy) wanting. They didn't satisfy.

But it only takes one very good MMO, and players will leave.

If WoW were to develop a better endgame, they wouldn't. History does not have to repeat itself, if people learn from it.

Remember, at launch, that AoC and Warhammer had nearly a million subscribers in the first month, and that's from the US and EU alone. What does that tell you? Players are hungry for something more. Even Blizzard acknowledged this in a stockholder report, indicating that many players had left to play elsewhere, but they are beginning to return.
(5) Posted: 16:41 on 21 Jul 2009
Bill Vaughan
But WoW's figures never dipped, people tried both for a while, then went back to WoW. People are bound to be curious about new, prettier, games - myself included.

I just previewed Aion and I'm totally smitten! After playing it all weekend, I was sad when the beta session ended (I played it until the server literally kicked me off), but going to back to WoW wasn't in any way a step down. In fact I went straight into a few heroics and enjoyed them immensely.

I'm looking forward to TOR too, so it's not that I'm just obsessed with WoW and not open to trying other games. I just really enjoy it, and so do many other people.

You named Warhammer and AoC, both flawed games. What about LOTRO, that's doing really well by all accounts, and EVE, another success story. But people aren't leaving WoW in droves to go there because they're desperate to do something, anything, else.

WoW is, what, almost 5 years old now? And it's subscribers are still increasing last we heard. Of course, eventually those numbers will start to decline as games with better options come along, but I don't personally think that anyone can say WoW is failing its players. Tabula Rasa failed, AoC failed at first but it's clawing its way back up. When WoW's numbers start going down - even when they're half what they are now, the game will still have 10 times what the next popular MMOs have now. That's not a game that's killing itself!
(6) Posted: 22:21 on 21 Jul 2009
Elvyra
Love ya, Belinda, but I can't say I agree with your analysis. :)

A couple of points:

If they're completely happy with WoW, why buy and subscribe to another game? That's a $80-$90 investment for just 3 months, and I don't think 'mere curiosity' explains that away. I've never known people to buy an MMO just to try it out. When you buy an MMO, you are signing on...hopefully for the long haul. The whole idea is to level up, reach the top, be a hero, and have some adventures. You know, to BE Conan or Robin Hood or Gandalf. If WoW was all so satisfying, and they had no hope of finding something better, they wouldn't drop that amount of cash.

The games you mentioned had their own struggles. EVE had a launch so bad, it could be described as apocalyptic. They sold boxed copies, it was botched by the distributor, they went to an online sales model...and the game slowly grew from there. LOTRO was, if you'll remember, roundly criticized for being a nearly identical WoW clone at launch. Tabula Rasa...well, that one requires no explanation. ;)

You yourself pointed out that WoW is changing the way it approaches the endgame. If the endgame is all sweetness and light, and better than anything else, then why are they themselves changing it? (On a side note, I openly salute the WoW devs for experimenting with new forms of endgame content. I think they're doing it all wrong, just switching one grind heavy model for another, but I salute them for at least giving it a shot.)

Also, the numbers did definitely and clearly dip, and Blizz management acknowledged this. Morhaime said: “"Age of Conan released with some initial success. We did see some of our players leave, [but] about 40% of those players have returned to World of Warcraft." Paul Sams said, “The good news is that we've seen a significant number of people, well over half, that cited Warhammer as their reason for leaving - they've already returned.”

That, to me, says that many players aren't satisfied with WoW as it is, and are looking for something else.

I feel like you're not hearing the music of what I'm saying, Bill - maybe because I'm criticizing your sacred cow? :) I'm not trying to touch a nerve, but this is history repeating itself. This same situation existed 6 years ago, and there were a lot of Bill Vaughans saying, “Yeah, whatever, there have been a lot of pretenders, but no one is ever going to beat EverQuest.”

And then WoW came along.

It only takes one good game.
(7) Posted: 22:41 on 21 Jul 2009
Felix
I've read your first blog and as all others wondered if you yourself had even played WoW in the last year and a half. Being so erroneous in it's analysis of the game per se and what you perceive as faulty development decisions.

I frankly can't understand you decide to try and defend your point of view against all others, dismissing just about a uniform majority as "fanbois".

If I may try and teach you something from history, as you seem to warrant that:

When man come upon an unexplained phenomena, he makes a story around it, he creates an explanation. Then when other men listen to that explanation, if they question it, he points to the phenomena and says, but look there, theres your proof.

And that's your defense. You see people leave WoW when other games come out, the phenomona. Then you create a false tale behind the event, and questioned about it you point to the phenomena and say; there's your proof.

It takes a big man to admit when he is wrong, and I think you should grow or pay round about now.
(8) Posted: 22:57 on 21 Jul 2009
zerohour
Like many I thought he was nuts in the previous articles, but this one he started speaking to me when he talked about where Blizzard is putting the energy and focus in this game specifically with respect to the inordinate amount of time I have to raid weekly to help 24 other people (not counting the 10-15 other standbys) retain their gear for the content we are grinding out.

He's right! It's a tedious grind that offers one instance at a time now - currently being Ulduar. I'm in one of the top guilds on our server, clearing hard modes now in Ulda slowly but surely and I've acquired about everything I can possibly want to get from 25 man runs. To min/max the character I have to locate 9 other people that will make the commitment to show up another 2-3 nights. We currently raid 4-5 nights a week depending on attendance at 3 hours a crack. This means to acquire the best gear for my character I must raid 15 hours in 25 mans + another 15 hours in 10 mans, all for that one chance I'll finally get that stupid trinket that is far and away better than anything else in the game. Hey, it only cost me 40 hours of my time per week for 6-8 weeks but man it was worth it, right? Hardly. If I wasn't an addict I'd blow this game off and go kill monsters in my beloved Diablo 2. Unfortunately, this game is too loot focused and driven.

When I first got this game back in 2006 I grinded to 60 within 2 months and then asked, "What do I do now?" And the answer was, "Now the game begins." You get to spend all your game time prepping for raids, grinding gold and rep, and then spending nights with 39 or 24 or 9 other people fighting about gear.

Honestly, I raid to get the content done, and then gear follows. Personally speaking however, I'd rather everyone else raids for the gear, and then let's me buy it from them when they're done. My chief complaint about this game from the beginning was when I saw the words "Soulbound" and I have always read them as "Timesink". That means you have to be present for every single kill to acquire the item, and the BOE items are not of equal or better caliber, they are merely just sub par to another item you too could have for the low, low cost of 120 hours and weeks of lost sleep and productivity.

Everyone now has roughly the same gear, except you have alts that you may want to gear up, so that means spending whatever amount of time you spent on your main x 2.5 (accounting for failed pugs and bad rolls) to acquire gear for one other character, or convince enough guildies to roll alts and come join you in yet another 2-3 hour raid night on their off nights. Not gonna happen if you are in a progression guild and people only dedicate time to the main event raids.

To me, the best gear in the game should be randomized with random stats. The content should be made more time-friendly than it is now. Remove the Soulbound BOP from the items so you have an absolutely flourishing market of items to get from trade or the AH (instead of Disenchanting items you spent 10 weeks hoping for). That means when Guild Super Duper A Squad moves on to Tier 10, the others on the server who want a shot at Tier 9 but don't want to spend the time grinding raid instances can go for them in trade. Random stats on items may also allow for such hand-me-downs. Much like the old Windforce Hydra Bow, with it's 1 in 44,000 drop rate, you wanted the +8% mana leech, but if you got a +6% you would use it until you got the better version, sell the old, and move along. Imagine the time you would save buying these items from others. They could of course put restrictions like "Items lose enchants upon trading" to keep things like Hodir in line, but still, a person like me with several hundred thousand gold would love to see this come about. There, elimination of one time sink aspect.

Now, as for other dungeons, they refuse to add this content. Only sparingly. Dire Maul, Magister's Terrace come to mind. 3.2 offers an epic only instance but that's seriously not what the average person wants. Quick and easy dungeon crawls, chances at superior loot, not having to coordinate with 25 people to get them to show up on time - that's what the masses want. Sure it's an MMO which means social game, but it's more like playing in a second job some days. 5 player instances in progressing difficulty would alleviate so much hassle.



(9) Posted: 23:12 on 21 Jul 2009
Felix
MMO's are a grind, but are you in the 5% who are the only ones able to do this? No, half the server is probably grinding the same content as you, devoting more or less time.

But that was not the conclusion of the first article. It stated that Ulduar and before that Naxx was restricted to 95% of the players and only 5% had entrance and that was the reason people left WoW.

The author is now ignoring this his first postulate in the discussion and has taken to defend another point of view; if WoW was a good game people wouldn't leave it.

Instead of admitting he was wrong...
(10) Posted: 05:01 on 22 Jul 2009
Dupuisd
I completely agree with the Author and Zerohour above. I am from what I like to call a "Casual Raiding Guild". We are a smaller guild of 12 or so people, all RL (real life) friends. We play because we not only enjoy the game, but we enjoy playing it together.

More 5 man instances of increasing difficulty would make the game SOOOO much funner. I don't remember having as much fun as I did when leveling from 70-80 as we progressed from instance to instance as we leveled. I play at least 20 or more hours a week, and the grind just sucks. Plus if we don't have 10 players on, we can't even do a 10-man Ulduar without (pugging) getting someone else saved for a week. 5 man's were so nice where if everyone couldn't make it on that day, no biggy, you could always run with them (fresh) the next day, or the day after that, without having to wait a week or have them miss out on some of the fun.

Everything the author stated is true. Now has WoW come a long way from when it started, yes. For instance (no pun intended), the dev's at Blizzard have really tried to give an honest effort. Things like 25 man Vaults/OS are AWESOME. Being able to Pug a 25 man is great, especially when it only takes 20 minutes or so to complete. Anything that can be completed easily enough in one seating (whether it be 30 min or 2 hours) is reasonable. Obviously, the shorter the better, people want to have fun, not WORK!
(11) Posted: 05:21 on 22 Jul 2009
Felix
yes it's nice you enjoy WoW but everything you are saying is the complete opposite of what the Author was saying WoW was like.

Oh and you are right btw.
(12) Posted: 04:05 on 23 Jul 2009
Dupuisd
The author is completely saying WoW hasn't done anything good, just everyone keeps focusing on the fact that "Wow is killing itself".

He is saying the same thing, even if he doesn't specifically mention the good things Wow has done. For the most part, he is right
(13) Posted: 13:57 on 23 Jul 2009
Felix
Okay, I'm gonna stop here since it's getting to be the usual internet squabble. But firstly, what we are critiquing and author defending (...?), is his first blog. Wherein he claims; WoW is killing itself by making endgame too hard and unaccessible to all but 5%.

Everyone who played WoW in the last recent years knows this to be not the factual situation. So did he just sit there and make something up? Pull a cliché out from ignorance not knowing it was incorrect?

Everyone including bloggers from this place has argued against his gibberish, which he has then showed away as "fanbois".

He then writes this other blog where he changes the subject and is suddenly defending a whole other and more easily defendable point of view; his taste.

Using what I assume should be a proffesionel platform, to end up in an internet argument of getting the last word, in a so stereotypical internet forums way, where it's all namecalling and subject-changing? As a kid? Whatever. But as a "journalist"? No. No to first blog and no to second too.

Were I boss I would have reprimanded him for poor research on the first blog, but I would have fired him for the second.

All in all I am new to this site, but coming here seeing one of their writers lack of professionalism has branded this place negatively, was it not for him being so clearly a sole swallow.
(14) Posted: 14:09 on 23 Jul 2009
Luke Kneller
The MMO weekly article Felix is actually the writers own point of view about MMOs and has the freedom to do what he wishes with that (to a certain degree) Our MMO editor made a reply in a article about that to show that it is personal opinions but in a more factual way.

IncGamers has strict professional news as well as personal opinionated articles Felix, if you read any of the other news you'll see that these features are indeed rare.

I hope you continue to read our site and enjoy the variety of styles.
(15) Posted: 14:27 on 23 Jul 2009
Bill Vaughan
Yeah it's Jeff's opinion, and one that obviously quite a few people share. I agree that the original point seems to have shifted, but I also agree that the end game of WoW is somewhat lacking.

However, I still maintain that WoW is not failing, or killing itself etc. Just look at the figures, they speak for themselves. Yes, people leave to try other things, but subscriptions still aren't going down.

When someone figures out a better way of keeping players in a game, then I'm sure everyone will flock to this new title. Until then, WoW is the king of MMOs. Is the big grind, raiding, for everyone? No way, but there's plenty more to do at end game. Blizzard is not ignoring 95% of its player base. And WoW is not dying, not yet anyway :)

Yes, WoW is my sacred cow, no secret there. But just looking at the evidence I think it's silly to say WoW is on the way out.
(16) Posted: 15:17 on 23 Jul 2009
captaubrey
I won't speak for anyone else, but myself. WOW has become too repetitive and too end game focused. Raids are more like work than fun. You have to spend hours grinding to prepare for raids. You have to spend hours studying strats and watching crappy resolution you tube videos to prepare for boss fights. Then there's the hours spent in the instances for very little to no loot, because what does drop no one needs. The instances feel like there's no purpose to them other than to parcel out meager quantities of loot. Then on top of that the devs keep changing how your characters work in a quixotic quest for 'balance.' I've canceled my account. I may come back for 3.2, but I doubt it will be for long. It seems like the same old same old.
(17) Posted: 15:58 on 23 Jul 2009
thief
If I felt like that about a game, I'd quit. So would most people. Clearly not enough people feel that way about WoW.

Would YOU continue paying for a game that you felt was boring and work instead of fun? Can't see it myself, must be something keeping gamers there.
(18) Posted: 15:01 on 24 Jul 2009
Elly Davis
6 months subs should be factored in. I have a six month sub on my wow but I've not touched it in a good few months. Not saying WoW is dying, not by a long shot.
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